Curse

chuckles79 · Mar 23, 2011, 07:32 PM // 19:32

think about multi classing. How many PvE builds really use skills of two professions? Sure, imbagons use SY which is a warrior PvE only skill.

But how many human players actually use skills from their secondary profession much?
Not counting casters who bring Assassin's promise for discord calling either.

I mean core play as well. Not eles bringing DwG to go DoA.

I can think of just 3 that aren't sucksauce. Rt-N exploding growth MM; N/Rt healer, and E-Mo ER protter.

Xenomortis · Mar 23, 2011, 07:36 PM // 19:36

Now ask the same question in PvP.
And before you say "Shock on Wars" or "Stances on Monk", why have you arbitrarily excluded Assassin's Promise?

Also N/Me Fevered Dreams.

Str0b0 · Mar 23, 2011, 08:32 PM // 20:32

God no! Do you remember how much pissing and moaning went on back when a PvP change would nerf a skill for PvE and vice versa. Honestly this system works better than the old one. It lets everyone have their cake and eat it too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

think about multi classing. How many PvE builds really use skills of two professions?

Keystone Mesmer with a necro secondary for Signet of Sorrow since it's one of the better damage signets for picking off those last few remaining enemies. Panic Mesmer uses Ele secondary for Glyph of Lesser Energy.

Daisuko · Mar 23, 2011, 08:33 PM // 20:33

Honestly I like that skills are changing, but a lot of the changes are outright stupid.

Signet of corruption. Really. Oh goody, I can waste my elite slot on bleed, whopping -3 degen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

think about multi classing. How many PvE builds really use skills of two professions? Sure, imbagons use SY which is a warrior PvE only skill.

But how many human players actually use skills from their secondary profession much?
Not counting casters who bring Assassin's promise for discord calling either.

I mean core play as well. Not eles bringing DwG to go DoA.

I can think of just 3 that aren't sucksauce. Rt-N exploding growth MM; N/Rt healer, and E-Mo ER protter.

^ This is because you are bad. 9 times out of 10 if you aren't utilizing your secondary, you're doing something wrong.

Shadar · Mar 23, 2011, 08:59 PM // 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lest121

I hope in GW2 skills are split from the very beginning...

Same here. If for no other reason, to avoid future threads on GW2guru similar to this one.

gremlin · Mar 23, 2011, 09:37 PM // 21:37

The reason more and more builds don't use many secondary skills are the pve skills.
That is a direct result of changes to gw as the team experiments with changes they are thinking of adding to gw2.

Secondary classes are very much important in pvp and still important in a number of pve builds but luxon/norn/asura/ebon etc skills are becoming more important in some cases.

The pve skills effectiveness depends on rank in some areas of the game not in splitting your points into secondary classes.

They will never entirely disappear until you start playing gw2.

MithranArkanere · Mar 23, 2011, 10:38 PM // 22:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by HigherMinion

I would agree if PvE was still about learning how to enter PvP against AI. It's not. It's a completely different game.

People want to 123-afk-123 through Campaign content and get their shiny armours, while PvPers want to have to apply skill to get kills, to ensure only they can do it.

I don't like that. That's why my favorite enemies are the WiK white mantle.
I find them extremely easy in HM, since they don't have the same insane armor increase and other native buffs most monsters have in HM to compensate for having just 0..6 skills, so all I have to do is find the weak link in each party and then kil lthem all
But many people find them hard, because they are not defeating just by: "Kill healer->Go for the rest".

Instead, they have actual working builds. And there are many different combinations in their parties. The ones with resurrections are not always the same, the ones with AoE nuking are not always the same.
You have to pay attention to what they do, and change tactics accordingly.

I wish all enemies were a bit more like the WiK enemies.

pingu666 · Mar 24, 2011, 05:02 AM // 05:02

slavours is the dungeon i enjoy most (others ive tried are nearly all so boring :/ ) because you do haveto think and use certain skills and tatics.

asurastan is my list favourite area with the insane damage skills some of the dino's had.

Bellatrixa · Mar 24, 2011, 05:40 AM // 05:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

God no! Do you remember how much pissing and moaning went on back when a PvP change would nerf a skill for PvE and vice versa. Honestly this system works better than the old one. It lets everyone have their cake and eat it too.

^ this x9000.

I didn't play 3/4 years ago but I dated someone who did (and who used to use Guru at the time) and I remember TOTALLY the amount of QQing over skill balances... Seriously, it was stupid and I see the PvP/PvE splits as a bloody good thing even if at the bare minimum it lessens the 40-odd page threads that used to happen with every skill balance. Sure, there's still QQing, but on a MUCH smaller scale (and not just because the player-base has changed in size/activity). Also as has been said, it gives more scope for PvP skills to be altered without affecting PvE. I actually wish all skills were split functionality in that sense :/ Echoing the sentiment that in GW2 they do that from the very outset.

Urcscumug · Mar 24, 2011, 12:57 PM // 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karate Jesus

Melee AI is retarded.

Ah, but so's the mobs. And my team always has that special secret weapon they don't, so it more than evens out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rites

and yes i was one of those that ran (and still run) hero dervs, and really don't understand why people are saying that melee AI sucks so bad

They usually mean things like the fact they can get body-blocked or stuck (I once lost Vekk half a zone away, he was stuck on a cliff at the roadside) or the fact their priorities are not exactly what a human brain would pick, or the fact they sometimes ignore or delay obeying flags or behavior setting.

If you run beast master often you already have a higher tolerance for such things, since the pets are comparatively worse (lower reaction time, no flagging etc.)

And then there's what RedDog91 said. I get the same feeling, that some people don't realise just how literal the AI takes things. They react to stuff, but they have no experience, no imagination, no insight, they don't get bored, scared, panic etc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I can think of just 3 that aren't sucksauce.

Depends on your definition of "sucksauce". If you want a build that can own by itself aka farming then yeah, those are limited. If you want builds that support a larger team, there's plenty of those. Including in the professions that people consider sucky.

Example off the top of my head: R/Me condition spammer. It's not something I would run myself, it's not outstanding by any means, but it's perfect when slapped on a hero for support. The hero just needs to stand there and blindly mash the bar buttons: create conditions and hit "Epidemic" and perhaps "Fragility" once in a while.

Racthoh · Mar 24, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuckles79

I can think of just 3 that aren't sucksauce. Rt-N exploding growth MM; N/Rt healer, and E-Mo ER protter.

Paragon with Expel Hexes or Empathic Removal.
Warriors and Assassins with Conjure X.
Warriors with Death Pact Signet.
Order of Pain/Dark Fury on Dervishes and Elementalists.

I don't see how Explosive Growth can be considered good when people complain about Elementalist's damage being bad. Factoring in Hard Mode armor levels Splinter Weapon will hit harder and can be pre-cast on multiple characters so it'll hit faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedDog91

There is nothing extremely wrong with the AI. The problem is that most players give heros a build that works well in theory, but the AI control is very literal about skill usage and has no imagination. Heros do not have the ability to prepare for situations because the AI doesn't have the capacity to remember past situations. It is up to the player to realize this and do what they can to reduce the need for recoverable intelligence.
The reason people blame the hero AI is because its human nature to place blame on something else.

Here's the thing. I can bring a ranged hero who will shoot the mob I'm targeting behind the enemies running at me, or I can bring the melee hero who stands blocking their melee, taking hits from said melee, and not attack back. If you bring melee heroes your best strategy to optimize their performance is to literally mash your target closest enemy key and hit the spacebar.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

God no! Do you remember how much pissing and moaning went on back when a PvP change would nerf a skill for PvE and vice versa.

I remember complaining that my solo farming builds became ineffective. Looking back it was a childish thing to do; complaining that group play in a cooperative online game was interfering with my anti-social greedy tendencies. Could you still play PvE and succeed? Very much so, but people are against the concept of change. A common comparison made to Guild Wars is the card game Magic, but if there is one crucial difference that made Magic continually interesting was the constant cycling of new sets in and out. Yes it sucked having to shell out money to stay competitive (a lot of money for that matter) but it kept the game fresh instead of going stagnant. Skill updates were essentially the new cycles, and while powerful skills got kicked to the curb new stuff came right along to replace it. Now with 7 heroes there really isn't even a reason to complain if your "main" gets their build destroyed when you have access to the entire group's composition.

Contrary to popular belief you do not have to run the meta builds to succeed in PvE. You never had to.

Chthon · Mar 25, 2011, 01:48 AM // 01:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ellix Cantero

Would any one else like to see all the PVP/PVE split skills re-merged?

Absolutely not. The PvE/PvP split was one of the best things to ever happen to the game. It's simply not possible to balance a game like GW for both modes without the split. Keeping them chained together cannot result in anything other than one mode having bad skill changes made to it for the other's sake, and all the animosity among the player base that creates. (Do you remember those days when PvEers really, really passionately hated the PvP crowd for the senseless nerfs that Izzy visited upon them?)